Bridge Strategy for Past Events and the Industry in 2021 (The EventBuzz Podcast)
Podcast speakers: Savannah McIntosh, Purplepass Marketing Director and John Capano (SVP of Client Development at Impact XM). Jump to links and video notes below.
The EventBuzz podcast: Impact XM
presented by Purplepass
Podcast Transcript: Purplepass + Impact XM
Welcome back. I'm so excited to say that this is our 15th episode of the EventBuzz podcast by Purplepass. For those of you who are just tuning in, or are new to our podcast EventBuzz, it was created in direct response to COVID-19. When the world was shut down, and events started to get canceled, left and right, we wanted to find a way to not only connect with our event planners online, and help them through this time, but also connect them to each other.
As we started hearing more and more creative and innovative ways our promoters were continuing their events during COVID-19, we wanted to find a platform where they could also share these ideas others in the same space facing similar challenges.
Our goal and hope with each episode we put out is that planners out there are listening, learning and finding more ways that will enable them to keep doing what they love. With that being said, our next guest is a little different.
Previously, we've been speaking with event planners from different industries. However, this guest will be bringing a different perspective to today's episode. Today we are talking with John Capano, Senior Vice President at Impact XM, an experiential marketing agency with a nearly 50 year legacy. John has been in the industry for over two decades and applies his expertise in strategy, digital and client service for both B2B and B2C programs to impact XML growing portfolio of trade shows, events, and experiential marketing projects.
So, for those of you looking for ways to bridge the gap between your current situation, which probably isn't the best that it could be, or maybe it is, and the new normal of events, with exclusive marketing tips and online engagement strategies along the way, keep listening.
Hi, John, thanks for coming on to the podcast. Let's start by having you introduce yourself to listeners tell them about your current role with Impact XM, what the services are, your agency provides?
John (Impact XM):
Sure, absolutely. Thanks for having me on Savannah, really excited to be talking to you today. So my name is john capano. I'm the Senior Vice President here at Impact XM, we are a full service experiential and event marketing agency. So what that basically means is, we help our clients who tend to be kind of large, global fortune 1000 type companies, to host events. And so that could be everything from a sales meeting and Shanghai to a huge conference in Las Vegas to a trade show to an experience activation at something fun, like the NCAA or the Super Bowl. So anything that has a live experience, and of course this year, anything that's a hybrid or virtual experience as well, that's what we help our clients do.
And we're, we're full service and by that I mean we do everything from the strategy and the creative and the front end really understanding the client's business and bringing those ideas so life through the event production, fabrication, warehousing, kind of like everything you can imagine that might go into a live event. Not all of our clients buy it all, but it's a little bit hard. Like for most clients, it's it's heavy strategy and creative and production and then occasionally they even have us build a set or do something like that.
Okay, so all the works, basically.
So just to dive right into the episode, today, I want to talk it's all about the new normal, talking about what the world will look like for events, post COVID-19, how promoters can make the connection between their current situation now and the new normal that we're, we're already in basically and moving forward into.
So the first thing when I think about 20, what 2020 was, and 2021. Now it's either online or hybrid experiences now, basically, until we kind of go back into in person events. But before COVID Impact XM, you guys are primarily, like you said conducting face to face marketing or producing live events. So I'm just curious with COVID making both of those options impossible.
How are you guys? How are you guys? How did you pivot that or what what was major changes you had to put into play?
Sure. So you know, exactly. As you say, before COVID, we were live events agency, and we did quite a lot of live of brands, some of those on the smarter clients were hybrid, because they know that some folks wanted to experience the event live and maybe also experience it on their cell phone at the same time or they could make the event and they wanted to dial in.
So there was a lot of that going on. Not quite as much as there is now then everyone immediately pivoted in February and March pivoted to virtual only it wasn't really hybrid because you were not even allowed to have you know, most most states certainly in the US and most countries kind of said no, nothing bigger than 10 people. So that's kind of hard to have live events when you can't gather more than 10 people.
So we we got heavily into digital and virtual and really it was, I think the, the instinct of the marketplace was just to take that idea of a live event, try to recreate it online. And that and that was probably the first six months of the work we were doing clients was that, oh, I had a trade show. And I used to have a live booth. So can I design something online? That looks like a booth?
Sure, of course, we can do that and I think we came out of that experience for the first six months really learning best practices around understanding the audience and how they interact with a, with a virtual event or virtual environment differently than they do with a live environment.
And it really is a different mindset, a live environment is all about production and you might even produce some digital or virtual content as part of that production. Virtual event, or even a hybrid event is all about, like almost a broadcasting mindset. Like it's all about content and so you kind of flip that 80% networking 20% content of a live event into 80% content and 20% networking in a virtual event. And then looking forward, which is really the genesis of your question, hybrid has become this whole entire thing.
We've seen folks say, Okay, my hybrid event is going to be partly live and partly virtual. And I'm going to smash those two things together. Well, that doesn't really make for great hybrid event. What makes for a great hybrid event is really finding kind of the core idea of the multi screen experience and it just happens that you know, we talked about multi screen in our business about being the TV and the phone. And the computer, well add life to that. That's almost the fourth screen now.
And so it's really how do you build an event that's engaging across all those areas, and really leveraging technology in such a way to augment the live aspect. And so when we talk to our clients a lot, they talk a lot about virtual reality, we actually talked a lot about augmented reality because this idea of hybrid really is augmented reality. It's let's take a live event and let's lay on a digital layer in an augmented way and have everyone have a connected engaging experience.
We think going forward that that's going to be the model, we don't we strongly believe that hybrid is here to stay. Every every brand will take in a different direction and their own direction, every event will do it slightly differently and some will lean back into that 90% live ethic, but we really think it's going to be a balance and and you know, as a culture, we're kind of digital first. We're screen first, we're phone first. And so we think that's going to big play going forward in in live events is that that will continue to be a powerful way to engage people that can show up on site, or also might experience that after or before from home.
100% agree like hybrid events are definitely definitely becoming a thing now more than ever, obviously. But I think they're going to continue after this for sure. Especially now, we were a digital world before. Now with COVID after COVID we are definitely like digital remote people. And now doing events and we're like, oh wait, we can attend it when we need to or it's more flexible, or we don't always have to drive to it.
I just think that's the way of the future and after talking to a lot of our different promoters, a lot of them were really hesitant about like virtual going online. And then they finally made that switch because I mean, you have to you have to adjust you, the world around you or you're not gonna grow. And it's just fun. It's funny talking to them, because they're like, I was really like against it really hesitant and now they love it. Because they're like, wow, look, I can reach so much more people. And I'm like, yeah, and they're just amazed. Like they're reaching people like out of state out of the country and I'm like, Yeah, like that's the beauty of hybrid. So you can still have that live person experience while extending your reach beyond just that range of people that attended.
Yeah, and it really is, it's a different mindset, I think we've evolved in the in the folks that are really ahead of the curve have evolved to that thing is we used to produce content, that would make sense in a live setting. And now we're programming content that can live on augment the live setting, but really live on its own. So certainly for some of our more corporate clients, they're they're using their event program, so to speak, as the driver of their content marketing for the rest of the year were used to be the other way around. They would have some content and they would throw it into their event. Well, now they're designing the event to actually produce content that they can promote, on their website over social through email campaigns, through other events, through third party events that they may go to it's really changed the mindset of the marketplace in a big way.
And I think it's pushed us five years into the future because I think this was coming. Right? Anyway. And this just made it you know, that much more important to do right away in 2020 and 2021. Instead of waiting around for, you know, five or 10 years for everything to catch up.
So to convince our listeners and promoters out there that even now might still be hesitant about exploring the hybrid world or virtual events. We named like a few benefits. What would you say? Like are the top benefits to hosting virtual events and experiences or hybrid?
Sure, well, so you mentioned the first one, which is reach, right. So the first one is, I used to have an event for 10,000 people, if I do in a hybrid way, I can have 50,000 people. And I may have 10,000 people show up on site again, at some point. But I have another 40,000 people that couldn't make it for whatever reason, or don't want to come yet because they're uncomfortable, and they can experience it. And what we've seen that do is it kind of creates that FOMO, that fear of missing out for the next one.
And it used to be almost everybody you talked to felt like, well, I don't want to do a strong virtual event because it'll cannibalize my life, folks. And people have now realized that having a great virtual part of your live event is the best way to increase your attendees at your your next live event, it becomes the kind of the marketing engine that scalability is the marketing that drives your future attendees.
Hey, I went last year online, and it was awesome and I saw how much fun people had on site, I gotta go this year, I'm going to spend the extra time and effort to get through this year, because there's a lot of value in that live. And that's the other key takeaway is, you know, if you asked anyone about trade shows two years ago, or even some live events that weren't highly engaging, kind of fun, the normal events we do on the corporate side. Everyone's bored, everyone's like, oh, trade shows are so old school, nobody wants to go to them. And now all of a sudden, people are dying to get to trade shows, like I miss it so much. I want to see my friends, I want to be there, you know, so really is kind of snap back to realize that virtual well done, and hybrid well done is going to drive the heck out of your success for live going forward.
And I think that's absolutely the number one benefit. Beyond that, you know, there's benefits such as the data you can collect, you know, in a live setting you you would get people that registered. And maybe if you had a boot, someone would show up and give you their business card, but it's very hard to collect any real data in the virtual world. When you overlay it, every click every video, they watch every interaction they have, it's all trackable. And that really helps you understand your audience and develop your next meeting and prove your ROI to your bosses and all those things that you want to do with an event.
Another one that not a lot of people think about is, but it's becoming more important to sustainability. live events take a lot have a big carbon footprint. And so doing an event where maybe it's a smaller live portion, but a much larger online portion, you can get the same benefit and the same engagement for a much smaller carbon footprint. And obviously, that is important and should be important to many of the folks that we work with. So this is really a ton of benefits there. Your you know, your cost per attendee, all that stuff is better when it's hybrid over just live.
That's a good point about sustainability. I didn't think about that. But yeah.
Yeah, if you can reach 50,000 people, with the carbon footprint of you normally reaching 500. That's something you want to take advantage of on all levels. And it's really important to our future.
So I think one thing when it comes to virtual events, or the virtual environment in general, for promoters out there hosting these events, it's, instead of it's hard, like, what are your tips for creating a virtual environment that's engaging and captivating, rather than just having your audience sit there and look at a screen?
And I know, it depends on the event. It can range but that's and like you said, probably content and putting out things that are going to keep them engaged. But that's one thing I see with people that we work with that go to online, they don't know how to keep it engaging, because they're so used to the hands on experience, and it limits them.
It's it's certainly way easier to create that engagement and captivate your audience in a live setting. I mean, I don't care how great the, the, you know, documentary about the Rolling Stones concert is but going to a live Rolling Stone concert is always going to beat that out.
So I think the first thing is, is setting, you know, your your strategy and your objectives and understanding what is possible and isn't impossible. And the fact is, is that live events is you know, 80% networking and cat and engaging and 20% content. And the fact is virtual is the opposite of that. It's 80% content, and 20% networking and engagement. So just understanding that and setting your sights and your goals and your strategies against that.
You know, it's it's simple marketing equation, like TV is good for some things, print is good for other things, web is good for other things. And you wouldn't do what you do on TV on the web or in print. You could have the same theme, but you approach them differently, so the first and most important thing to realize is virtual is just a different animal than live and you need to adjust to that.
Then once you kind of realize that and you start to think about it, people engage online every day, how do they engage, they engage with content, they engage with each other, they engage with, you know, fun, interesting things. So there's all different types of ways beyond just the content to get people to engage. And a big part of that is what environment what what is your event? And you kind of mentioned this in the question. What's your event and what's the right environment for that some, some events, the right environment is like a full 3D immersive experience with avatars and almost like a fortnight type of, you know, gaming engine perspective. And that makes sense for certain types of events.
For other events, it's really just kind of an augmented website with increased functionality, that might be the best thing for that audience. So really knowing your audience, and what's the purpose of your meeting and what you're trying to achieve, and designing the technology to fit that. And then once that's done, just ideating the heck and brainstorming the heck for ways to get people more engaged, like shorter content, snackable content, ways for them to interact ways for them to not only interact with, say, the speakers or the acts, but also other people at the event, adding in gamification to kind of make it fun and interesting and a little bit competitive, if that makes sense for your audience. Adding in some easter eggs, because that's something again, that we try to do is like, what are the little cute little surprise, delight moments, those things are all very possible in the virtual world, you just have to put thought against them, because they're a little different than they would be like exactly what you might do in a live setting.
It's not like oh, in a live setting, I can create engagement by having a branded VIP area that only certain people get in and it's gonna be a Tequila Tasting and you know, George Clooney is going to show up. Well, that doesn't work that well online, right? But there is a version of that that does work online, that you can create that kind of engagement. And just based on your audience and your event and your resources, you get an idea on how to do that. And so that's one of the things we actually help clients solve is how do you do that. And it's, as you said, in the question, it's different for everybody. But there are definitely ways to do it.
And that's where like, your services would come in handy, too, because that's a lot of research, a lot of time to kind of get to know your audience. And it does help to have like a team behind you.
Yeah, we we tend to know what works based on you know, who is the brand, who's the host, who's the sponsor, who's the promoter, and what their audiences and what they want to achieve. And we have a library of things that have worked. And then we also have a whole creative and strategy team that's dying to, you know, jump on a new challenge, and help someone figure that kind of stuff out and come up with something totally new and unique to do.
And then the, you know, the technology, the technology, we also have a great tech team that can then say, "Okay, if that's what you want to do, I know just the platform to do it on" or "I know just the way to get that done." We recently did one with our client AT&T where we were doing, essentially what was a trade show booth, a virtual trade show booth. And it was for their retail group.
And they were like, well, in some of our stores, we do this demo where you try, you can virtually try on clothing or jewelry, and we're like, "Hey, we can do that." So we created in the booth experience using your webcam on your computer, a way for you to try on watches and jewelry and earrings and do your makeup kind of what you see in Sephora, that same experience, but they're doing it virtually very engaging for what they need it. You know, so there's this technology out there to solve those kind of challenges.
Yeah, I think we've just been forced to get super creative. Think outside the box, which is good. You know, our brain needs a wake up, we need to start thinking differently than we would for live events. And that's okay and like you said, there's your technology team. It amazes me like, there's one thing I need "hey, I need this, I wonder if there's an app for it? wonder if there's a platform for it?" there is. There's always a platform for something, something. It's just wild, how many resources we have finding the right one, figuring out what you need. So there's always something.
And that's the key to like, finding that right partner is where we, when we hire people, we make sure they're very good at what they do. But we also look for people that are curious, like the same way that that Southwest Airlines looks for people that are friendly. We look for people that are curious, we're like, "Okay, so what do you do in your free time?" Oh, well, you know, I sit on the couch and watch TV, okay, man, maybe you're not the right person for us. You know, you spend your time trying new things going into places. Those are the kind of folks that we have on our team and they really kind of help serve the needs of our clients. Well, because they're out there finding those kind of fun things to apply to client challenges.
Exactly. So I wanted to talk more, also about Hub and Spoke events.
Could you explain what this method is to our listeners?
Yeah, so what we're seeing is we think of this as a bridge strategy between when we were only virtual as we move into hybrid and eventually get back to the, you know, part where we can have 40,000 people all in one place, Hub and Spoke is just taking that, that meaning or that event and breaking it down into smaller version.
So just give you an example from our life is, every year 18 t hosts an event called Summit, it's usually about 5000 people in Dallas. But right now they can't have 5000 people come to Dallas, because they can't fly, they can stay in hotels, they can't travel all that. So what we're doing with them is we're having a smaller footprint meeting in Dallas, but we're doing versions of that in LA and Chicago, and New York.
And so you might have 1000 people at the core site, but then you might have up to 500 people or whatever is allowable at these kind of pot areas in these different areas. And that's the, you know, have been spoken a bit. It's all been tied together on a virtual platform. So everyone is experiencing the same event, but they're experiencing their own way and so you've got especially this works very well for regionalized events where you might want to have, you know, and you could be, say you're trying to rave and you want to throw one in in LA and one in New York and one outside Chicago and one in Austin. Perfect. Let's then tie that all together with a virtual platform.
So everyone's experiencing the same thing. And that, you know, I'm gonna date myself here, but it goes back to something that happened many, many years ago that some people some of your listeners may have heard of, is there was a concert called Live Aid.
And it was, you know, 100 years ago, and it was at the same time, on the same day, there was a huge concert in London, and a huge concert in Philadelphia. And they telecast the concert to each other at the same time. So we were sitting in Philadelphia, watching the live band there, in between the live acts in Philadelphia, we were watching on a huge screen, the live acts that the London audience was watching.
And it's really that same idea, instead of having one, one event where everyone is in the same place, for the time being, you're creating many events that are all tied together in a way so that you can get more people to experience a live part of it than you would if you try to do it all at once say, you know, in one location.
Gotcha. So it's more so for in person experiences, correct?
Yes, it's both. But the key to having the person experiences is to tie it together. And that's why it's hybrid is, because if you just have five small in person events, yeah, you don't have to buy five main speakers, you don't have five hosts, you don't have like, it just cost too much to replicate that five times. But if you do a core event with that as the hub, and then the spokes around it, and you tie it together, you can leverage that same budget into multiple locations.
And so it's a way it's like said, that's why we call it kind of a bridge strategy. Once things free up your everyone's going to come back to one location, because it's less expensive to do one location. Until we can do that you still want to generate that engagement and excitement of the live event. So why not do you know, five or 10 500% events that are tied together? And try to do one event where you can't get that many people?
Exactly. That makes sense. Yeah. I mean, I didn't really know much about that, either. Before I started, like looking into it. What strategy like tips would you give event professionals planners listening, that are looking into implementing this, this type of method or model for their next event?
So yeah, so I mean, it's a great question. And again, the key is, is, is hub and spoke. So the hub is, you know, that's where your mainstage is happening, that's where your most speakers are, that's where your CEO is gonna show up, that's where your main act is gonna show up, and then your, and then your spokes are smaller versions of that.
What you don't want to do is you don't want to be that the hub the core event, is really the event and then everyone else is sitting there in a room together watching it on TV, you actually need to create dedicated local or regional content. So in other words, you might have your CEO show up and interview Ilan musk in your main event. But then you want to have your regional VP in Los Angeles, interviewing somebody on the stage there that's relevant to that audience. And so you want to definitely create almost an event that could stand alone in each location.
But again, then tie them together virtual so you get the really the big pop from the main core. We've seen folks try this and they basically like, well, we're going to have like a watching party. And it just doesn't work because people can stay at home. They don't need to go to what they are to watch your event that's happening five, you know, 5000 miles away. The key is to use to design each one so that it could stand alone, but then leverage it into something bigger by connecting it.
Makes sense. And so with that, that means you're marketing to Separate audiences, depending on these different small groups.
Yeah, it's if you think of it as kind of an umbrella marketing, the event itself is the tentpole and then within each region, you're, you're focusing on that regional event, and what you're bringing to that, but you're allowing, you're also enabling your core event to drive interest as well.
So if you've got your keynote speakers, Ilan Musk, that's going to be interesting to everybody. But locally, we're going to have some great entrepreneur that's well known in the LA market, or maybe you're working with your customers, your clients in that market, or, you know, if you turn that into, say, a music festival, you've got local bands that are, you know, playing in LA and local bands to play in Chicago, the headline act might be in Vegas where the main event is, but you're localizing that content in a way and then you're marketing to those people, that they're going to experience the entire thing.
But they're going to have something devoted to them in their region, so don't have to get on a plane, they don't have to stay in a hotel, they can just drive in and park and be safe, you know?
Yeah. And I feel like that's where people would mess up on doing this model. Because they would think, okay, we have our main event. So we're gonna market that and not break it up and and reach those different audiences and depending on their interest and stuff, so that's a good point.
That's the trap. Yeah, that's the trap is to find that hook for the regional audiences as well.
And just just out of curiosity, because you're saying, with virtual events, it's more going to be content base. What, um, what is have you seen to be really effective? I know, it definitely depends on the event. But what type of content have you seen to be effective for pushing engagement and virtual events?
Well, so we've seen, I mean, the most important thing we tell clients first is short, short, right? Whether it's whether it just means instead of doing like, you know, if you're talking about a keynote, that would usually last a half an hour and 45 minutes, it's eight to 12 minutes, like short is first because you're just not going to keep people virtually.
And then secondly, interactive in some way, how do you involve the audience. And it's not that different when you're in a license, like something that's more interactive and has audience interaction is going to be more engaging. And that's true online, too. So when you pick your platform, you picking in such a way that if it's a, you know, if it's a room with 12, or 15, or 50 people in it, maybe it's a sea level event where you've got your CEO or some top scientists talking, you want to then open it up to some sort of back and forth.
If it's a very large audience, like you know, you have 5000 people in a room, what are you doing during the event, to make it feel live and feel interactive. And so that's everything from how to call and response or the audience live Q&A, things like that. There's a bunch of different platforms that do different things that you can do that but but again, it's it's a difference between a television program that's like one way, I have a half an hour program in my own studio to sit there on the couch and watch it.
And a more web interactive, which is a I've got a half an hour experience that I'm creating, and the audience is an important part of that experience. So yeah, I'm gonna deliver some content, but in between the content, what am I going to do to get that audience engaged? And it's just being thoughtful about that, based on what is the content? What is the event? What is the audience? And what is their appetite for that.
And again, we always go back to and pretend picking the right technology, because a lot of folks end up picking their platform before they answer any of these questions and then they realize the platform can't do what they want creatively. And so we're, we're always telling our clients, start early, and figure out these questions about what you want this event to be and how you want engage. And then we'll go find the right platform. There's a million platforms. And so that's, you know, sometimes the car gets before the horse on the one.
And when you say short I feel like you're spot on. Because I just think of whenever I just think of virtual events, I just go straight to when I was in college, and I had to do, like 100% online classes. And the lectures are just going on and on. That's how you lose someone.
Yeah, so easy to get distracted is a million things going on, I can reach anywhere on my computer. I can click off, I can have you in the background, my kids walk in the room. I mean, it's like there's a million distractions when you're online, and you really have to make it engaging and interactive and short, short, short, short.
I also think there's I think there's a lot of ways to do content, a lot of engagement. things out there. You just have to again, know your audience know what they what goes with your event, what's going to work and, yeah.
Okay. I think my parting question. Thanks again for your time, I know you're super busy so I'm trying to keep it brief, but my parting question would be to our listeners, the event professionals out there promoters, just in general, what kind of tip, if you had a tip at all would you offer to them regarding like moving forward into this new chapter of your life, the new chapter of events,
I think the most important thing I could tell that would apply to everybody, because as you mentioned, you know, everyone's a little different is, is start early, start earlier than you think you need to. Because this is one of the reasons is, this is a new area for a lot of people. And people are learning as they go and so it's really important to start early, because everything is going to take longer than you think it is.
It's not in the old world where we, hey, we turned out live events, like clockwork, and we all know what we're doing, you're in an area now where a lot of people have come to this new and you're gonna be a little bit inventing as you build. And so start early.
And then the second thing I would say is build your what we kind of call your event or your partner ecosystem, which is pick the right partners and get them involved very early, it used to be like, "Hey, you know, I'm throwing a live event, at some point, I need a lighting guy." And so I'll call my favorite lighting vendor, and they know what they're doing. And I'll give them the specs and they'll get it done.
Again, virtual is different. It's much more of a team effort, like find your agency partner, find your creative team, find your tech team, bring them all in really early and make them an intrinsic part of creating the experience you want to create.
At the end of the day, it may cost a little bit more to do it that way. But you your return on that investment will be tenfold overdoing it kind of the old school way we used to do, which is, you know, small team in the middle, and they just call who they need when they need them. We're really seeing that the the level of skills and the type of skills, and what everyone brings to the table as a team is really important to the success of these things.
And so that would be I think that's the probably best advice I can give is, you know, start early and pick the right partners, and then go from there.
Yeah, and that's great advice. And I would just add on don't be, don't be afraid to make mistakes. I mean, it's a learning curve. I think a lot of people are just afraid to jump in and afraid of the unknown, especially super traditional event planners that don't even know anything about digital virtual events. Don't be afraid.
The good thing is, the good thing is if you pick the right partners, I'll help you avoid those. And the fatal mistakes have more or less been washed down to the market. Like when we first started this back in February and March, there were events that happen where when you when you logged into the event, it didn't happen, because they didn't pick the right platform or the scalability. Most of those fatal mistakes, as we call them have been washed out. Now people know enough and the platform's have scaled up enough to handle the volume and the different things so. So it's not life or death anymore.
I would say if we were talking last March or April, it was life or death. Now it's just like, you know, my event was great, or my event was even better, right? And so I think that that's important the point you make, which is dive in, jump in like people are dying for ways to interact with each other and interact with, you know, life again, and this is a great way to do that. And it's and we'll be back to normal soon.
You're gonna learn a ton between now and then if you if you dive in and try some of this stuff.
And people are way way forgiving right now, just like you said. They just want events. So they're like, okay, it's fine. At least it's something.
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Okay. Well, thanks so much for meeting with me. I appreciate it and it was a great, it was great talking to you learning about what you guys do and everything you offer.
Yeah, well, thank you so much. It was really great talking to you great questions, and I hope your audience finds it informative and helpful.
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